並前往https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/%E4%B8%8D%E6%95%97%E6%95%99%E4%B8%BB%E9%99%B3%E9%87%8D%E9%8A%98-%E9%99%B3%E9%87%8D%E9%8A%98-m5kg7BpvxC4/